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Talk: Elrondlair

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Haeremai, welcome, talofa, Willkommen, bienvenue, welkom[]

Welcome to the Genealogy wiki! We hope you can make continuing contributions of articles and/or discussion and other improvements.

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Discussion of any aspect of the site, and enquiries, can be made at Talk:Main_Page or on the "discussion" page associated with each article. Sign and date your contributions there, so that readers know "who to talk to" and whether your message is probably still of current interest. If you write on a user's "talk" page, that user will get an alerting message on next visit.


(It would help some of us to know how you discovered this site.)

Enjoy!

Robin Patterson 12:19, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


Ancestry chart suggestion[]

Elrondlair,

Here's an alternative for keeping track of what persons you're working on---This requires some familiarity with HTML, and is a bit cumbersome to use, but once in place, makes it easy to navigate around on your family tree. Only works effectively for about 5 generations no one chart, but you can create other charts for "deeper downs". Bill 12:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


Your Ahnentafel ancestry layouts[]

I like them! But (as you will see from the celebrity actors) what a lot of fiddling they take after creating (which is in itself very easy, I presume, from a commercial program or website software) so as to look OK in wiki format! I wonder whether we can automate some of the conversion.

Keep up the good work.

Robin Patterson 22:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't planning on doing detailed pages for the ancestors of the celebrities so included as much info as my program had. Unlike my personal ahnentafel which I hope to eventually have pages for each of my ancestors. I will have to look into what I can do before I do any other celebrities. Thanks --Will 02:04, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Changing a page name[]

Your recent blanking of a page puzzles me. Couldn't you just correct the name by using the Move tab? Robin Patterson 12:01, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, still new at this. I have now moved this into a page for a new person. Now there won't be a useless page. --Will 02:02, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


On the same subject, Will, I've renamed your Person page, as explained in the Move log. It's a good-looking addition to the list of "templates" offered, so I've included it at Help:Starting_pages#Select_a_Template. I hope I've done it right!! You may still tinker with it as much as you like. Robin Patterson 05:21, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

General help[]

See Forum:General_genealogy_help.. I won't always be so prompt!! (Suggestion: don't add a full stop after a heading or subject name in an input box - unnecessary and might even lead to errors, such are the mysteries and vagaries of URLs.) Robin Patterson 02:04, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, what is a "full stop"? --Will 02:05, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
"." - compare Forum:General_genealogy_help with Forum:General_genealogy_help.. Robin Patterson 03:53, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Surname categories fleshed out and linked to other pages[]

See http://genealogy.wikia.com/index.php?title=Category:Shade_Surname&action=history - there is some tidying and detailing you can do if you like, but it can stay "as is". Robin Patterson 03:53, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

County pages - your idea is taking off and/or taking root[]

Please see http://genealogy.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:County_Pages_Idea#.22Model_County.2C_Statename.22_articles if you haven't already.

I mentioned it on the email list, nearly two days ago, but few people see that, apparently.

Robin Patterson 13:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

OK- I put in my application for sysop.[]

Genealogy:Requests for adminship#User:Phlox. Thanks for considering this. I am asking for your vote. ~ Phlox 02:35, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Getting the original look back.[]

Answer in Forum:New Look. I apologize that this affected you, and am a little baffled why you even saw the new look. Did you see it after you logged in? PhloxBot 23:52, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Deletions etc in a page you were working on[]

See the history of Descendants of Thomas Hugh Buckingham Sr. (1824-1898). Robin Patterson 04:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Mailing list[]

Hello again, Will. I'm pleased to see you maintaining your edit "ranking" above mine in the Statistics.

I hope you, as a major contributor, are on the wiki's mailing list. If not, please have a look at Forum:Mailing list for this wiki and consider joining.

Kind regards

Robin Patterson 11:42, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

New bot: AMK152Bot[]

Evan Rachel Wood[]

I hate to undo your research but according to the IMDB and most sources Wood's mother was the Sara Lynn Moore born March 6, 1958 in Los Angeles, California - [1]. Belldrop 03:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Person templates[]

Hi, Will. I noticed in Recent Changes a few hours ago that one of your new pages was getting an old-style surname category. I followed your user-page template to its current redirect and checked that template. It has the new surname category link. Maybe you're using an old copy of the person template? AMK said he had fixed them all, but maybe yours is offline for instant copying? Kind regards --Robin Patterson 04:35, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's my copy of Recent changes (slightly edited for better display; times UTC+12) showing what I think is at least three getting "Surname" instead of "(surname)":


N 14:34:03 Jason Patric Miller (1966) (diff; hist) . . (+2,758) . . Elrondlair (Talk | contribs | block) (New page: ... Category:Miller Surname ...) +- 14:27:22 Genealogy:Person Template‎ (3 changes) . . (+27) . . (Page history) [AMK152‎; Elrondlair‎; Robin Patterson‎]

14:27:22 (cur; last) . . (+147) . . Robin Patterson (Talk | contribs | block) (Updating a little)
09:03:14 (cur; last) . . (-78) . . AMK152 (Talk | contribs | block) (update)
08:42:40 (cur; last) . . (-42) . . Elrondlair (Talk | contribs | block)

+-N 13:48:48 Brian Ray Trout (1970)‎ (2 changes) . . (+4,184) . . (Page history) [Elrondlair‎ (2×)]

13:48:48 (cur; last) . . (+184) . . Elrondlair (Talk | contribs | block) (→Spouse: )
N 13:45:26 (cur; last) . . (+4,000) . . Elrondlair (Talk | contribs | block) (New page: ... Category:Ulrich Surname ...)

N 12:59:30 Campbell Scott (1961) (diff; hist) . . (+3,568) . . Elrondlair (Talk | contribs | block) (New page: ... Category:Scott Surname ...)


That change has been given a bit of publicity recently. See Forum:Surnames.

Robin Patterson 06:00, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

"Died in Somesuch County, Mystate"[]

Hi! As one of the more recent editors this month, you can be among the first to know that it is now very easy to create a category page for "Died in Somesuch County, Mystate" in the United States. See Template:d-us. When you see that a person page is in a category like that but it's a red link, you can very quickly fix it and thereby make the link much more useful. (I probably don't need to include that last sentence for you! You've been a prime mover in this county page business.) Robin Patterson 06:19, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

"br"[]

Hi! Good to see you beavering away still.

I noticed you added a "br" tag to a template. I think there is talk of phasing out that tag in favour of "br /> - something to do with XML.

Good news is that it's one of the new buttons I added to the row of edit buttons that appear above the edit box if you have java enabled. One click to insert the whole tag.

Well, they were there a minute ago! Temperamental things.

— Robin Patterson (Talk) 06:31, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Info pages[]

Will, I read your note that came and went. For many months, I didn't understand enough about info pages to create even one properly. But by pestering the experts I have found enough answers, and I'm creating info pages almost blindfold while helping to improve the explanations.

The explanations must now be pretty good. I judge that one or two of every three new contributors can be found creating info pages with hardly a foot wrong. Have another read, maybe, then go to one of your shorter articles. Copy its name to your clipboard, then in a separate window follow the procedure for adding an info page to an existing article: start at the first heading on Help:Alternative types of page for individual ("Strongly recommended format using info pages").

— Robin Patterson (Talk) 06:05, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

THANKS[]

I thank you for your help ! Regards, Fred Bergman 06:35, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Showing descendancy[]

Found the most recent discussion: Forum:Standardizing subpages of people pages. — Robin Patterson (Talk) 05:17, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Trouble with the new rich text facility[]

Will, if you've been using it, please go to your preferences and turn it off. It incorporates the troublesome CategorySelect, which mucks up every info page you look at. See Forum:CategorySelect.

I've fixed three of your people but I expect there are more. Each may need editing of the article (except the one I edited) before it adopts the corrected info page.

— Robin Patterson (Talk) 10:15, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick response. CategorySelect moves to the end of a page (after a "newline" or "carriagereturn" - called "Enter" on modern keyboards) any category it finds. The resulting newline adds unwanted newlines to every "get" template that tries to use the page; that produces unwanted cells in tables and expressions that are supposed to be links but aren't links because there's a newline before the closing brackets.


If Rich Text is unchecked in your prefs, that may be because Wikia has now responded to my request that it be turned off here. I suggest that you check your contributions - every info page, not just the new ones - for the last few days to see what's at the bottom. The bad ones will have <noinclude>[[Category:Info pages]]</noinclude>. Move the category link up a couple of lines to sit just before the previous </noinclude>, and delete the noinclude tags left at the bottom. I've done a couple of Butlers since talking to you. I forget which ones I had done before that. I found them all by chance because I was checking which pages are successfully using "showinfo siblings". Then I got interested in the Butlers because one of my relatives once said we descend from them.

Once the info page is fixed, you probably need to do a trivial edit to the article before it will fully incorporate the corrections.

— Robin Patterson (Talk) 01:48, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


Phlox has now changed the template in an attempt to ensure that CategorySelect doesn't mess with it. Meantime, we can still let it mess up our pages if they use the old version. See what you are reported to have done to poor Elizabeth (presumably by not disabling CategorySelect or category tagging): http://genealogy.wikia.com/index.php?title=Elizabeth_Butler_(c1422-1473)/info&curid=110119&diff=293747&oldid=288025

--— Robin Patterson (Talk) 06:02, 28 June 2009 (UTC) :-)

Thank you for extending my family tree[]

I had branched into the Crawfords because they have the current shortest line to an ancestor of Queen Elizabeth, but there's plenty of nobility in the Gordons. And it's lovely to see that old books I used to lug around in libraries have now come under the tender loving care of Google! — Robin Patterson (Talk) 03:28, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Your former format for person articles[]

I notice that you are no longer creating articles using your former template (eg Diane Hall (1946)). Would you object to these being upgraded to SMW format articles (eg: those in Category:Facts articles- person)? ~ Phlox 01:51, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Marie Tol-Remington[]

Hi Will,

Much obliged if you could trace my cousin Marie who moved with her father Wouter Tol (1874-1951) to Portland OR and "married Mr Remington and had three children". She seems to be my only relation in the US who had children!

Richard rtol 13:12, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Peter Stanley

Hi Thanks for your help. I cant find the link at all I am not convinced Tudorplace is correct I know the line goes back to the Plangatenets as my great Aunt saw a tree when she was a girl and was shown the line right back to the monarchy and that tree was decades old I just need validation to be happy.

Fussy soul arent I.

Linda Challinor 14:36, September 29, 2009 (UTC)Linda--Linda Challinor 14:36, September 29, 2009 (UTC)

Showfacts[]

These can be created by direct editing, filling out parameters like you did with info pages. Obviously the forms are to make it as easy as possible for newcomers to enter things and power users may prefer the direct editing mode. If that is something you think you and others might be interested in, I could make up a create page thing kind of like the create info page deal. Let me know if that would be useful. ~ Phlox 06:32, October 9, 2009 (UTC)

Auto generated trees[]

Hey William- thought you might be interested in this: Carloman of France (866-884)/tree. It is an example of the auto generated pedigree page. This subpage will be auto generated for free from facts or info pages. For facts pages, it has more information- a kind of mini bio. Example here: Carl David Anderson (1905-1991)/tree

If you have feedback/ suggestions let me know. ~ Phlox 04:17, October 23, 2009 (UTC)

Contributors with time[]

Your preferred method of indicating time with name is now supported by putting whatever you want displayed in the contributors list after the <display> tag. An example may be found at Marie Therese de Bourbon (1778-1851). Basically, you can put in anything you want after <display>. If the scheme is satisfactory, let me know and I can have the bot convert over your former Contributor lines to use this way of doing it.~ Phlox 22:13, November 15, 2009 (UTC)

Isabel Forbes (1548-1622)[]

Will, I'm now working on my Forbes ancestors, where I see that you have made contributions. I'd love to know what sources you have, especially for the dates of Isabel Forbes (1548-1622) and her siblings. — Robin Patterson (Talk) 12:58, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

For Isabel you can find the information here : [2] in Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists who Came to America Before ... By Frederick Lewis Weis, Walter Lee Sheppard, David Faris. Sorry for the late reply. --William Allen Shade (talk) 00:48, September 16, 2013 (UTC)

Descendants of John Gore (bef1635-bef1674)[]

Hi, Will. Another unregistered person editing Descendants of John Gore (bef1635-bef1674). You may like to check its recent history to see that all's well.

Much of what that page does can now be done (and updated) semi-automatically with {{showfacts descendants}}, which goes on one of the standard subpages of any new-style person-page.

Kind regards --— Robin Patterson (Talk) 05:18, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

Ancestry of Christopher D'Olier Reeve (1952-2004)[]

Hello, Will. You've been silent lately; I hope you're well.

Christopher D'Olier Reeve (1952-2004) has discrepancies in his ancestry, notably the parentage of the person whose page currently calls him Luther Smith Woolsey Sr. (1798-1842). WARGS has two different versions and yours differs from them. Would you like to make it one of your mini-projects, since those people are fairly closely related to you?

Kind regards

— Robin Patterson (Talk) 02:10, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

Source for my information notated along with the information on WARGS. - --William Allen Shade (talk) 00:55, September 16, 2013 (UTC)

Woolsey ancestors[]

Will, you have another distant cousin working here. She's sure the "1610" Woolsey, whose descendants you have so tirelessly documented, was really born in 1616 shortly before his christening. She has produced some impressive documentation on his talk page. Maybe you have some evidence for the "1610"? — Robin Patterson (Talk) 11:00, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

I have no proof of the 1610 date, but that is the one most researchers use. I have seen arguments that in such a large town waiting for a christening for 6 years would be rather unusual. Would love to see what documentation the other researcher has. If you find it good I have no problem with the page being changed. - William Allen Shade 19:45, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

Royal cousins[]

See Royal descendants of Johan Willem Friso van Nassau-Dietz and Marie Luise von Hessen-Kassel and Project European Royalty. rtol 23:18, August 1, 2010 (UTC)

Jessica Simpson and I share the same Great Great Grandmother Narcissus Buelah Holmes from John William Valentine.

Removing question-marks from page names[]

Will, I've removed all or most of the question-marks from links to potential page names in your splendid "Jermyn" table. Software can't handle them properly, so we are getting rid of them. Please try to remember not to add any. — Robin Patterson (Talk) 06:16, September 19, 2010 (UTC)

Welcome back![]

I hope you can use the new improved forms. -- Robin Patterson (Talk) 13:11, August 3, 2013 (UTC)

"Esden" or "Edsen"[]

Do James Esden (1889-1946) and James Willard Esden (1920-1938) really have the surname "Esden" (the former has "short_name=James Clarence Edsen") or should it be "Edsen" throughout, like John Jay Edsen (1930-1952)? Maybe you should include a note about the change of name, so that we all know it isn't just a typo. Thurstan (talk) 22:38, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

Fixed --William Allen Shade (talk) 00:35, September 16, 2013 (UTC)

Page names[]

Please don't create pages like Sarah Hury/Hary (c1828-bef1880)‎ with slashes ("/") in the page name: the Wiki software sees this as a subpage marker, and a lot of our templates break. I suggest you pick one surname, and create a redirect from the other, and explain in the notes. Thurstan (talk) 06:43, October 13, 2013 (UTC)

I didn't see this before I changed it to "Hury or Hary". Will, you should probably pick the more likely name for the "Surname" box and add the page manually to the surname category for the other. -- Robin Patterson (Talk) 07:04, October 13, 2013 (UTC)
Thanks guys, I did not realize it would create a problem. --William Allen Shade (talk) 00:47, October 14, 2013 (UTC)
This on Familysearch looks like the death of her son, George William Cline (1870-1927), where they read her surname as "Huey". Thurstan (talk) 21:01, October 14, 2013 (UTC)
Interesting. Another name to go on. Thanks --William Allen Shade (talk) 00:19, October 15, 2013 (UTC)

Walter Stewart, 3rd High Steward of Scotland (c1198-1246)[]

I have replaced your new version of Walter Stewart, 3rd High Steward of Scotland (c1198-1246) with the version that was already here. You will find your version as the previous revision. You might like to add your updates back to the current version. Thurstan (talk) 07:12, October 30, 2013 (UTC)

So you have also duplicated Alan FitzWalter, 2nd High Steward of Scotland (1140-1204) at Alan fitz Walter, 2nd High Steward of Scotland (1140-1204) and so on, I see. Thurstan (talk) 07:23, October 30, 2013 (UTC)

Progress (?)[]

2013-11-02T13:11:54 (diff | hist) . . (-8,605)‎ . . Delete me please ‎ (Replaced content with "<div style="float:right;padding:5px;border:0px solid;">__TOC__</div>") (top) [rollback]
2013-11-02T13:11:06 (diff | hist) . . (+7,688)‎ . . Guillaume Fuqua (c1667-1698) ‎
2013-11-02T13:11:01 (diff | hist) . . (+30)‎ . . N Guillaume Fuqua (c1667-c1697) ‎ (Elrondlair moved page Guillaume Fuqua (c1667-c1697) to Delete me please) (top)
2013-11-02T13:11:01 (diff | hist) . . (0)‎ . . m Delete me please ‎ (Elrondlair moved page Guillaume Fuqua (c1667-c1697) to Delete me please)
2013-11-02T13:04:36 (diff | hist) . . (+688)‎ . . N Guillaume Fuqua (c1667-1698) ‎ (Created page with "{{Showfacts person |given_name=Guillaume |surname=Fuqua |sex=M |joined_with=Jane Eyre (c1671-) |short_name=Guillaume Fuqua/Fouquet |contributors=Elrondlair |birth_year=1667 |b...")

Will, it's great to see you adding more and more good pages, presumably part of your Ahnentafel. But a couple of points arise from the above chunk of your history.

You don't seem to have discovered {{tocright}}. Easier than <div style="float:right;padding:5px;border:0px solid;">__TOC__</div> and very similar result.

Most of the above edits seem to be virtually deleting a page while remaking a new version. Looks like a lot of unnecessary work, and it potentially destroys the earlier page history, which had contributions from other people. Might I ask why?

Kind regards. -- Robin Patterson (Talk) 01:14, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

Hello. I don't use the div styles anymore, they were part of my old template I used before the standardized template was created so it is left over from years ago. As for the new page for Guillaume Fuqua, I am afraid that I only discovered after making the new one that I had previously made one years ago. So I transferred the information to the new page since it uses the form. I know I still have pages that I made with my old template, but am not sure of the best way to update them to the current format. -- --William Allen Shade (talk) 02:05, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying. Finding duplicates is probably something you strike more and more as you move further back in time, because page names get more ambiguous and tend to have unpredictable translations of names of people and places. Like what Thurstan found and noted above! Too bad the Wikia search engine is still a bit unreliable, but it's worth the occasional check. Ancestral lines one person creates will merge with someone else's work more and more often as we grow.
Now and again I upgrade one of your old-style pages, though more often one of someone else's. One of our forums links to the suggested procedure at Help:Upgrading old-style person articles, but there's no one-size-fits-all way to do it. Usually I "start afresh" in a new window using the existing page name (after renaming if necessary). The form gives me a friendly warning that the page already exists. I copy the contents of fields from the still-open old version or from the code near the bottom, then I delete old sections that are thereby wholly superseded but I leave old sections that I'm not sure about. I need to add {{footer}} nearly every time (preferably just above "External links"), and usually {{Siblings}} except where you have that or its long version. Finally a look at the published page may suggest rearrangements (e.g. moving the children template down). Then sensor and tree and descendant subpages follow, with a final edit of the article to link to the sensor and tabs and to tidy up any loose ends.
Keep up the good work! -- Robin Patterson (Talk) 09:29, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

Unknown surnames: "Unknown"[]

"Unknown". I think one of our guidance pages for names says that, more or less. It makes the page look not too irregular, and it puts the person in a category for unknown surnames, which may be useful for maintenance or research by others.-- Robin Patterson (Talk) 03:40, November 3, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you sir! --William Allen Shade (talk) 03:51, November 3, 2013 (UTC)

{{Showfacts biography}} etc[]

Sarah was missing {{Showfacts biography}}. I seldom use the advanced form because it's very rare for me to want anything that needs it (except "long name", which is unimportant), so I don't know whether it omits that template. Maybe it does, because the template is a relatively recent development. I'll have a look at the code.

I tidied Sarah a bit more - placenames tended to miss proper arrangement in the automatic upgrade. And one town needed the State name added, for proper linking (as do most U.S. towns). Name was ambiguous and now has a disambig page copied from WP too.

-- Robin Patterson (Talk) 04:02, November 5, 2013 (UTC)

Zapped a few more question-marks[]

Will, I moved a few people on your main ahnentafels and did the necessary republishings (plus updating some sibs templates) - after a move we need to republish the sensor page (and for old ones with templates in the box we can delete all of that) then republish the article. Tedious business but I can almost do it in my sleep now. Maybe I'll do more of yours in a few days, though I suspect that some of my ancestors need treatment too. -- Robin Patterson (Talk) 11:10, November 5, 2013 (UTC)

"Old" pages[]

Please excuse me for jumping in. Here is how I would find a list of "your" pages which need upgrading. You might like to copy it off to a "TODO" page or some such:

You might like to try it with "modifiedby" rather than "createdby", to catch some extras.

Thurstan (talk) 01:52, November 6, 2013 (UTC)

Clever lad. I was busy editing here to say someone like Thurstan might be able to do it. I hadn't thought of "createdby". That could be the basis of a help page. -- Robin Patterson (Talk) 02:23, November 6, 2013 (UTC)

Upgrading and improving[]

Thurstan has answered your question flawlessly, it seems. You should ask him more questions in a direct way!! Anything that might involve SMW or parser functions.

Removing question-marks and slashes from page names should perhaps get priority, because upgrading isn't fully useful if links may not work. You could find more question-marks and slashes by skimming your ahnentafel pages. If, while doing that, you find you can upgrade those articles or those of linked relatives, after the page move, you can do them in conjunction with any required republishing.

Keep smiling! -- Robin Patterson (Talk) 02:29, November 6, 2013 (UTC)

Here are some question marks:

Thurstan (talk) 02:36, November 6, 2013 (UTC)

Susannah Harroff (1791-1862)[]

In this article you indicated Poland Township in Trumbull County, Ohio. According to Wikipeda, Polant Township is located in Mahoning County. Is this another Trumbull County in Ohio? Afil (talk)

Mahoning county was created in 1846 from parts of Trumbull and Columbiana counties. At the this time for Susannah Poland Township was located in Trumbull as Mahoning was not created yet. I hope this answers your question. --William Allen Shade (talk) 04:25, December 8, 2013 (UTC)

Move subpages too[]

Will, please remember to have the "subpages" box checked when moving pages. -- Robin Patterson (Talk) 12:01, December 2, 2013 (UTC)

Category names[]

Please note that category names are usually in the plural form, so Category:Seneschals of Cannock‎ rather than Category:Seneschal of Cannock‎. Thurstan (talk) 02:05, December 6, 2013 (UTC)

Hugues I de Grandmesnil (1030-1093)‎[]

You recently created a duplicate version of Hugues I de Grandmesnil (1030-1093)‎ which Rtol created some years ago. I have roughly merged them: you may like to check and fix. Thurstan (talk) 02:54, December 29, 2013 (UTC)

The picture of Thomas Maples and Lydia Maples are the same photos on Find a Grave for Gilbert Maples and his wife. Which family member is correct?


Thanks

107.14.25.34 03:23, December 31, 2014 (UTC)Beverly (beverly.winter@gmail.com

Dulcia Savage[]

Will, there's a discussion on Talk:Famous Descendants of William the Conqueror of England that you may like to help with. -- Robin Patterson (Talk) 01:55, January 9, 2015 (UTC)

Raymond de Sully[]

Are you really claiming that Raymond de Sully (-1242) had a child with his own mother? Thurstan (talk) 22:55, July 16, 2015 (UTC)

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