]]* Talk Archives 2014-2021

New problems[]

See Forum:Migration to UCP‎. --- Robin Patterson (Talk) 05:37, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Apology from me[]

Mate, I'm sorry I've not been paying attention to my user talk page lately. I'll take a closer look at your postings now. --- Robin Patterson (Talk) 11:41, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Bodorgan manor photo ?[]

I previously deleted a picture of the Bodorgan manor picture after doing a search I then found it online as a house in Bournemouth England and not Anglesey, north Wales.

Can you confirm this is the picture of Bodorgan manor, as there doesn't seem to be any made public on the internet ... ?

SMW Problems[]

I have moved this conversation to here: User:MainTour/SMW Notes. Debug work is still ongoing.MainTour (talk) 18:26, 19 April 2022 (UTC)


I would not recommend create a template {{Em‎}}, since Wikipedia already has a different template with that name. Thurstan (talk) 07:56, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

I moved it to {{Emark1}} and deleted the old one. Thanks for the tip. MainTour (talk) 01:32, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
Thank you. Thurstan (talk) 01:52, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Introduction and assistance[]

Hello! I’m Héctor, a Fandom Community Manager. First of all, I would like to congratulate you for all the work you have been doing in this community. I would also like to offer our assistance with a project we run for wikis and your wiki is eligible for it. If you’re interested, we can offer to you some key informative areas about wikis and community management to help you grow this one.

To start with, once you agree we typically discuss a bit about your previous experience on Fandom. The procedure is to mention all the areas we can explore with you, and you can later select the ones you would be interested in. Let me know what you think about it. Thanks in advance! --CuBaN VeRcEttI (Contact) 08:56, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the offer. At this time my top priority is to fix the critical broken templates for Children and Descendants on Familypedia. Any links to help manuals for using Semantic MediaWiki and MediaWIki would be appreciated. This may take another 2-3 months to complete. Only after that would I be able to focus attention to other parts of the Wiki. MainTour (talk) 12:51, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
Understood. I'll send a Wiki Rep. here soon to explore a bit our resources about templates and SWM, and they would probably be able to help you more on your daily issues with templates. --CuBaN VeRcEttI (Contact) 14:24, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Test case[]

I have set up Arthur Augustus Abbott (1876-1944) with {{showfacts children3}} as a test case, and no children are dispayed. Can you fix it for me please? Thurstan (talk) 07:33, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

FIXED - First the "Form" Requires "Showfacts children" to declare that data property. Then refresh with Form Edit again afterwards to have data display for both showfacts children & children3.MainTour (talk) 12:46, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
No, the "Form" does not require "Showfacts children" to set the properties: your template is not a replacement for "Showfacts children" if it does not set the propeties. So I do not accept that your form is a replacement for "Showfacts children" yet. Thurstan (talk) 20:14, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
Sorry, it seems to me that you still don't understand how {{showfacts children}} works. The logic is as follows:
If any of the parameters are specified then
set the properties from the parameters
display the children (from the parameters)
retrieve the appropriate group(s) of children from the spouse(s) page(s)
set the properties from these group(s) [this is where there is a bug in our current version: the group numbering is wrong]
display the children
Note that the "display the children" logic is shared, and shared with the "siblings" template. However the siblings template does not set any properties. Thurstan (talk) 04:29, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
Form:Children: In researching the documentations for the old {{showfacts children}} I found this gem: "Form:Children controls the structure and format of the data displayed by {{showfacts children}}, {{siblings}}, and {{descendants}}." I am able to confirm that Form:Children works just fine for every page to allow you declare upto 10 child groups. This data also shows properly in Special:Browse/Heber C Kimball. I found that I always have to use "Edit With Form" to get it to correctly declare the new values for any edits. The templates control display of this data - which for all became quite buggy from the OS upgrade a year ago. Two test subjects show large family groups:
Children Template Logic: I have finished the edits to {{Showfacts children3}} to use the logic you listed above. I can see that old showfacts children was listing out both children and step-children. However, I have followed your direction to list immediate children only.
Siblings Template Logic: The current version of {{siblings}} also follows this same logic format. However I have ready an expanded version {{siblings3}} that will show all step-children.
Backup Copy: "Just in Case" I have a made a complete backup copy of the old template and documentation and saved it under {{showfacts children2}}
Next Steps: - I think I have everything ready to copy {{showfacts children3}} onto {{showfacts children}}. But I am holding off to do more testing and research on how Form:Children works. I see Robin created/locked that form back in 2011. I don't see any need or reason to change the form. I think the problems are just how to run the displays from the templates. MainTour (talk) 03:55, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
If you check many of the pages created by User:Afil over the years, you will see many pages correctly displaying children that has never been edited with Form:Person, so the your "gem" is totally misleading. Thurstan (talk) 05:13, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Arthur Augustus Abbott (1876-1944) is still not working with {{Showfacts children3}}. Thurstan (talk) 06:41, 18 May 2022 (UTC) Sorry, I see that {{Showfacts children2}} is the one to use, and it works. Thurstan (talk) 08:15, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Mary Ann Sherringham (1851-1877) is showing her kids from her husband's page, but doesn't seem to have set the property. Thurstan (talk) 08:42, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
"Arthur Augustus Abbott (1876-1944) is still not working with {{Showfacts children3}}. Thurstan (talk) 06:41, 18 May 2022 (UTC) Sorry, I see that {{Showfacts children2}} is the one to use, and it works." That is a powerful case (and important clue) to highlight your concern! Thanks for sharing - I'll dive deeper here.MainTour (talk) 14:24, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Got It! - {{Showfacts children3}} now declares children data directly. Any other ways to improve/test these? Samples: MainTour (talk) 04:22, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
I still don't see any children properties on Susan Nina Edwards (1884-1923) or Mary Ann Sherringham (1851-1877). Thurstan (talk) 04:47, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
CORRECT! - That is exactly as planned. The wife will display children as defined on her husband's page. And children display Siblings as they are defined on their Father's page. That is the default setting. But for a spouse you can override it if you want to. MainTour (talk) 13:22, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
The old {{Showfacts children}} performs this same way - and you see this by looking at the properties report for
No, the old version was not suppposed to work "the same way": that is one of the things that has stopped working and must be fixed. Otherwise the descendants pages for these people will not work (they used to work). Thurstan (talk) 20:16, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
I will work on the Descendants page issue next - that might take me a week or 2 or 3.MainTour (talk) 13:27, 20 May 2022 (UTC) The more I think about descendants, your solution sounds a whole lot easier than what I was planning.MainTour (talk) 16:17, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Finding Non-SMW people[]

It looks impossible to recreate the tool to find non-SMW people articles by user like before. But I do have this new little tool to find SMW people by Surname.

Sample places to run it:

Here is the sample code: (manually change the surname to test) The following list of Hall family person articles should be upgraded to SMW format.

Property:Has spouse[]

Is your template setting the property Property:Has spouse: it looks like it is being set to children or sibling? Thurstan (talk) 02:17, 21 May 2022 (UTC) That looks like another flaw in the old template. So far I only set dclarations I've made are the child lists using {{Showfacts children3}} which affects none of the people your "Has Spouse" report is showing below. However, I can correct that and I'll add it to my thing to correct. Good catch.MainTour (talk) 13:34, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

No, it is not in the old templates. The property is set in templates {{Showfacts children/nest5}}, {{Showfacts children3/main4}}, {{Showfacts children3/main5}} which are all yours, I believe. Thurstan (talk) 20:19, 21 May 2022 (UTC) I see it now - it is in Nest5.
Problem solved. And lots of those problem pages are fast disappearing from the list you had displayed here. However, I notice that once I take {Has spouses} out of my template it totally disappears altogether. It only shows for people in my second list here as I specifically call to install it as a copy of Joined_With. But since it is not part of the old Children template and now removed from Siblings, it is no longer around. My question - do we even need this field? Or should I remove it from {{Showfacts children3}} altogether? MainTour (talk) 02:45, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
Well, since you invented this property, without having found a good case for using it (apparently), it should be removed. Thurstan (talk) 06:21, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
That's my thought also. Will do. MainTour (talk) 14:01, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Actually, it looks like a bit of a mess: Thurstan (talk) 05:04, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

MainTour (talk) 01:34, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Descendants / Children Templates Solved[]

I'm doing a lot of final testing now - but {{Showfacts children3}} has solved all of the major problems.

::I can't seem to get Sarah Ruck (1656-1689) to work! Thurstan (talk) 23:52, 22 May 2022 (UTC) I am still not patient enough! She is okay Thurstan (talk) 23:54, 22 May 2022 (UTC).

I agree - having to hit refresh two or more times with every edit was very trying on my patience too - especially at first when I did know what all my code bugs were. But Now I really think I've got this all in place and ready to go. For the next few days I'll review everything before copy {{Showfacts children3}} over to {{Showfacts children}}. My sample person Elizabeth Coltrin (1859-1890)/descendants shows several generations of daughter descendants- all using Children3 to copy and declare values from their spouses. I will also update documentation: Below is a list with people files using {{Showfacts children3}} ready for testing.MainTour (talk) 03:38, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
  • User:MainTour/SMW Notes -my detail notes on bugs found and corrected with the three templates - Children, Siblings and Descendants.
Arthur Augustus Abbott (1876-1944)Leilah Minnie Carlisle (1873-1970)
Mary Ann Adair (1822-1892)John Mangum (1817-1881)
Ellen Bardsley (1819-1864)John Mangum (1817-1881)
Louisa Beaman (1815-1850)Joseph Smith (1805-1844) + Brigham Young (1801-1877)
Dorothy Bland (1761-1816)Richard Daly (1758-1813)+Charles Doyne+Tate Wilkinson (1739-1803)+George Inchbald+Richard Ford (1758-1806)+William IV of the United Kingdom (1765-1837)
William John Campbell (1905-1947)Viola Hall (1906-1971)
Elizabeth Coltrin (1859-1890)Hyrum Edwards (1857-1907)
Sonja Margaret Loveday Vile (1923-2005)Lindsay Nathan ()+Don (‘Red’) Brinsen (-c1944)+Charles Edward Mercer (Charlie) Davies (-1971)
Susan Nina Edwards (1884-1923)William Tracy Hall (1869-1901) + John Wood Hall (1880-1907) + John Arvid Nordquist (1879-1952)
John Wood Hall (1880-1907)Susan Nina Edwards (1884-1923)
Viola Hall (1906-1971)William John Campbell (1905-1947) + Henry Ward Nelson (1897-1973)
Vivian Hall (1903-1958)Thomas Edward James (1896-1986)
William Tracy Hall (1869-1901)Susan Nina Edwards (1884-1923)
Mary Hamblin (1853-1871)John Mangum (1817-1881)
Thomas Edward James (1896-1986)Vivian Hall (1903-1958)
Heber Chase Kimball (1801-1868)
Edwin Sobieski Little (1816-1846)Harriet Amelia Decker (1826-1917)
Sandbox18Mary Ann Adair (1822-1892) + Ellen Bardsley (1819-1864) + Mary Hamblin (1853-1871)
John Mangum (1817-1881)Mary Ann Adair (1822-1892) + Ellen Bardsley (1819-1864) + Mary Hamblin (1853-1871)
Sandbox57Mariah Lucinda Heath (1858-1931) + Testcase Wife2 + Testcase Wife3
Joseph Eslem Mangum (1850-1922)Mariah Lucinda Heath (1858-1931)
Laney Ann Mangum (1846-1846)
John Arvid Nordquist (1879-1952)Susan Nina Edwards (1884-1923)
Ann Nina Perry (1854-1895)Patrick McGuire (c1843-?)
Harriet Sanders (1824-1896)Heber Chase Kimball (1801-1868)
Eliza Roxcy Snow (1804-1887)Joseph Smith (1805-1844) + Brigham Young (1801-1877)
Sarah Ann Whitney (1825-1873)Joseph Smith (1805-1844) + Joseph Corrodon Kingsbury (1812-1898) + Heber Chase Kimball (1801-1868)
Brigham Young (1801-1877)
Susannah Young (1795-1852)James Little (1790-1822) + Richard Oliphant (1801-1862) + William Bostwick Stilson (1795-1844) + Alanson Pettingale (1801-1861)

Things to fix[]

By default, I would like your new version to look like the old version, so I would like to see these changes:

  • take the comma out of the birth and death columns, so that you don't get commas for empty entries
  • add the formatting so that the "joined with" column has the different spouses on separate lines, rather than joined by "+"
  • remove the "order by" on the column heads, I don't see any use for it.

Thurstan (talk) 05:47, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

All Corrected Now! MainTour (talk) 13:35, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
Any thoughts on the width of the table? Right now fixed. Wider? Flexible? MainTour (talk) 14:54, 23 May 2022 (UTC)


Thanks for all your efforts here, MainTour. I've looked at your recent changes to the doc page. Your additions look good though I won't try to understand them all. But some of the deletions seem puzzling. Were they all rendered incorrect by the upgrade? Surely some of the more detailed explanations will need only a bit of modification? --- Robin Patterson (Talk) 11:09, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Emerging Wikis Assistance[]

Hello there! My name is Nightsilver, and I'll be the Wiki Rep who will walk you through the semantic MediaWiki and templates from CuBaN VeRcEttI. I'm excited to start teaching you all about the technical stuff with this facet of editing. First thing's first, as templates are a broad information space, I'd like to know what it is you need to know specifically so that I can tailor the lesson to your exact issue. Also, let me know your preference of communication, whether you would like to keep speaking on your talk page, my talk page, or on a different space if you wish.

I look forward to working with you!Nightsilver (walltalk) 13:43, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Almost all of our 250,000+ person profile pages use a custom template to track data on parents, spouses, places, children, etc. More details can be found here User:MainTour/SMW_Notes. You will see from the notes that we are still trying to correct errors from the last Wiki upgrade done 4.26.21. MainTour (talk) 20:50, 4 June 2022 (UTC)


"I am trying to create a list of every body who has the same birthday as me.This statement below seems only to create a list of people born on the 8th OR in July. (But is should be 8th AND July). {{#ask: [[Birth day::8]] [[Birth month::July]]|?Birth date|?Death date|?Birth nation}}

Please advise what I'm doing wrong here. "

Have you looked at the coding for Familypedia's page about your birthday? Or the main page daily listings? (:-) --- Robin Patterson (Talk) 03:09, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Months are numeric: you need {{#ask: [[Birth day::8]] [[Birth month::7]]|?Birth date|?Death date|?Birth nation}} Thurstan (talk) 06:06, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
Thank you both! - I'm actually using this to update the death day section : List of people who died on their birthdays. More complex - but working smoothly now.MainTour (talk) 13:27, 21 June 2022 (UTC)